[Music]
[音乐]
is
就是
right so now what I've got here mhm look
对，所以现在我在这里得到的是，嗯，
at that that cost 100 quid to track that
看看那个花了 100 英镑来追踪那个
now 100 this
现在 100 这个
100 oh this was the first edition of 79
100 哦，这是 79 的第一版，
yeah
是的，
now now this book I always I always
现在这本书我总是 一直
think of this book as being the Charles
认为这本书是查尔斯
sbr's Pandora's
的潘多拉
Box because that has gone down in
魔盒，因为它
history as the facts of what happened in
作为泰国谋杀案的真相载入史册，
those murders in Thailand and that is
并被
deemed to be a written
视为一份书面
confession mhm yeah that that book if
供词，嗯，是的，那本书，如果
that book hadn't been written we
那本书没有 被写出来我们
probably wouldn't be we wouldn't be
可能不会我们
talking now one minute what I would say
现在不会谈论一分钟我首先要说的
first
is very strange and bizarre that
是很奇怪和奇怪的
uh all the MERS that they mention in
呃所有他们在这本书中提到的MERS
this book saying that I
说我
confess in all those cases I've been
承认在所有这些情况下我都
acquitted oh I have no morees against me
无罪释放哦，我没有更多的反对我，
right and is that true so is that true
对吧，这是真的，所以这是真的，
you've been aced it
你被淘汰了，这
means yeah that
意味着是的，
uh a lot of they wrote here is a lie do
他们在这里写的很多都是谎言，
you regret doing it yes I do regret
你后悔这样做吗，是的，我确实后悔，
because you're saying you didn't kill
因为 你说你没有杀
these people what I'm interested what
这些人，我感兴趣的是
sort of person do you think did these
你认为这些
murders look it is still an unanswer
谋杀案的凶手是什么样的人，这对我来说仍然是一个悬而未决的
question to me what do you think they
问题，你认为他们当时的
mind must have been like do you think
心态一定是怎样的，你认为
they were a psychopath you you you mean
他们 一个精神病患者你你你的意思是是
the thing yeah absolutely lunatic and
的绝对是疯子和
psychopath yeah would you like to see
精神病患者是的你想见见那个
the man who did these murders
犯下这些谋杀案的人
Court
yeah because he he has caused me so much
吗法庭是的因为他
problem till today and do you think he
到今天为止给我带来了这么多麻烦你认为他
deserves to be executed for these crimes
应该为这些罪行被处决吗
I believe so yeah you see when you see
我相信，所以是的，你看到
this kind of murder yeah that then then
这种谋杀案时，是的，那么，
then yes Whoever has done it he deserve
那么，是的，无论是谁干的，他都应该被
to be
executed
处决。
retired detectives Jackie Molton and
退休侦探 Jackie Molton 和
Gary copson are re-examining the five
Gary copson 正在重新调查
murders in Thailand that saage has long
泰国发生的五起谋杀案 萨奇长期以来
been suspected of but was never tried
一直被怀疑犯有谋杀罪，但从未受审，
for the victims never had a voice and I
因为受害者从来没有发声的机会，我
think it's really important if you can
认为
bring the victim's voices to be heard
让受害者的声音被听到是非常重要的。
saage has agreed to Jackie and Gary
萨奇同意杰基和加里就
interviewing him about those murders
这些谋杀案对他进行
with a final interrogation day
最后的审讯
approaching the search for evidence
临近搜寻证据的日子
continues and another key witness has
还在继续，还有 关键证人已经
been
found hi Jackie it's David how you how
找到嗨 Jackie 我是 David
are you oh some good news I've Tracked
你好吗 哦 有个好消息 我
Down rine and she's going to talk to us
找到了 rine 她会和我们谈谈
brilliant the neighbor who lived in
住在
canet house who was really helpful to
canet house 的邻居 对
the nienberg and catching him yeah
nienberg 很有帮助 并且抓到了他 耶
that's that's the one yeah all right
就是那个，好的，
when can she do this call do we need to
她什么时候可以打这个电话，我们需要
do on Zoom yeah we can do it on Zoom
在 Zoom 上打吗，我们可以在 Zoom 上打，
she's quite willing to do it on Zoom I
她很愿意在 Zoom 上打，我会
check that out with her all right well
和她核实一下，好的，
if you send through the to us and we'll
如果你通过 我们，我们
get it all set up definitely I'll do
会把一切都安排好，我一定会这样做，
that David thanks all right bye
大卫，谢谢，好的，
bye Nadine jurus and her husband lived
再见，纳丁·朱鲁斯和她的丈夫
in canet house in 1975 and were
于 1975 年住在卡内特之家，是
neighbors of sabrage at that time he was
萨巴雷奇的邻居，当时他
using the pseudonym Alan Gautier and
用的是化名艾伦·高蒂尔，
lived in the apartment block with his
住在 在公寓楼里，他和他的
girlfriend Marie Andre la Clair who went
女友 Marie Andre la Clair 在一起，后者的
by the name Monique Nadine was a key
名字是 Monique Nadine，她是
player in the investigation carried out
by Herman nienberg and Angela Kane she
Herman nienberg 和 Angela Kane 进行的调查的关键人物，她
took covert photos of saage and his
偷拍了 saage 和他的
associates that demonstrated the Shady
同事们展示了 Shady
comings and goings at his
在他的公寓里来来往往
apartment Nadine jurz interview takee
Nadine jurz 采访了
one Nadine good morning I don't know
一次 Nadine 早上好，我不知道
what time it is in Thailand did you
泰国现在几点了，你和
befriend Mary Andre L clar and Charles
Mary Andre L clar 和 Charles saage 成为朋友了吗，
saage yeah we we became friends uh
是的，我们很快就成了朋友，
quickly you know I went to upstairs to
你知道我 去楼上
meet see her so we went to the swimming
见她，所以我们去了
pool we went shopping we cooked we you
游泳池，我们去购物，我们做饭，你
know like
知道，就像
girlfriends nothing thing did you have
女朋友一样，没有什么事情，你有
any sense that Mar Andre was troubled by
没有感觉到 Mar Andre 因
her relationship with Charles sabrage
与 Charles Sabrage 的关系而感到困扰，
not at the beginning but later on she
不是一开始，而是后来她 她
talked to me uh two times about him and
跟我谈过两次关于他的事情，
I was shocked she told me I have no
我很震惊，她说我没有
passport I have no money so I said this
护照，也没有钱，所以我说这
could be arranged you can go to your
可以安排，你可以去你的
Embassy get a new passport she said he
大使馆办一本新护照，她说他
will find me and he will kill me he will
会找到我，然后杀了我 他会
find me and he will kill me yes can I
找到我，然后杀了我，是的，我可以
ask you whether you met a Turkish man
问你是否见过一个
called Bali hakeim yes I met him but he
叫 Bali hakeim 的土耳其男人，是的，我见过他，但他
looked sick like a zombie you know so I
看起来像个僵尸，你知道，所以我
asked Monique Mar Andre what's wrong
问 Monique Mar Andre 他怎么了，
with him she said oh it's a junky and I
她说哦 这是一个 瘾君子，我
remember his necklace he had a big
记得他的项链，他有一条很大的
silver necklace that was there the next
银项链，第二天就到了，
day and he he had moved out so I said
他搬走了，所以我说，
but he left his necklace oh he's coming
但是他留下了他的项链哦，他
back soon did you meet a Dutch couple A
很快就会回来的，你遇到一对荷兰夫妇了吗，一位
lady called cocky and her boyfriend henk
叫自大女士和她的男朋友 henk
yes I saw them in the apartment I came
是的，我在公寓里看到了他们，我
in without knocking the on the door and
进来时没有敲门，
they were sitting and so was there and
他们就坐在那里，所以我就在那里，我说
said oh sorry I am talking business with
哦，对不起，我正在和
these people can you go and see Monique
这些人谈生意，你能去
in the next apartment I said okay okay
隔壁公寓见见莫妮克吗？我说好的，好的
that's all and then never see them again
就这样，然后就再也见不到他们了，
did you hear any noises about them being
你有没有听到他们
ill vomiting diarrhea or anything I
生病的声音，呕吐腹泻之类的，
heard them the next day I was with
第二天我听到他们的声音，我和
Monique with Mar Andre in the apartment
莫妮克还有马尔安德烈在公寓的
in the living room and then heard
客厅里，然后听到
mouring you know like people sick next
哀悼声，你知道，就像有人生病了一样
door so I asked her what's that she said
隔壁，所以我问她那是什么，她说
oh it's the Dutch they are sick and and
哦，是荷兰人，他们病了，
then the Dominque went on top of the
然后多米尼克走到冰箱顶上，
fridge there was a plastic pipe smelling
那里有一根塑料管子，闻起来有
gasoline you know so he said uh he had
汽油味，你知道，所以他说呃，他
seen him and AJ come back that night
看到他和 AJ 回来了 晚上
with a plastic pipe put on the fridge
用塑料管放在冰箱上，
and their pants were full of mud and the
裤子上全是泥巴，
shoes too the minic was very straight he
鞋子也是。米尼克很直率，他
said
说，
the uh Al is killing
呃，阿尔在杀人，
people and showed us the newspapers this
还给我们看了报纸，这
is the two Dutch you saw a few days ago
是你几天前见到的两个荷兰人，
can we ask you
我们可以问你
Nadine about what instigated you to go
纳丁，是什么促使你去做
what made you go into the apartment on
什么 让你自己进公寓
your own and have a look because we
看看，因为我们
wanted things to move on and uh try to
想让事情继续发展，呃试图
stop him but I need I needed to have
阻止他，但我需要
some uh evidence you know and what did
一些呃证据，你知道，
you find I think I focused on the Dutch
你发现了什么，我想我把重点放在了荷兰
so I thought I must find things to
所以我想我必须找到
something to prove these two people have
一些东西来证明这两个人
been here and so the diary was
来过这里，所以日记是
perfect for sure they were talking about
完美的，他们肯定在谈论
Sage so when you went back the second
Sage，所以当你第二
time can you remember what you found
次回去的时候，你还记得你发现了什么吗？
then the second time I was with Herman
然后第二次我 和 Herman
and Angela we were in the bedroom I
和 Angela 在卧室里，我
found photos a full box with uh flight
发现了照片，一个装满
tickets the medicine in behind the
机票的盒子，里面有药，在
kitchen uh cter cat nine what is the
厨房后面，呃，cter cat nine，
drug that you found
你找到的是什么药，
cowat cowat I remember Herman took it
cowat cowat，我记得 Herman 服用了它，
and then later on I think he told me it
后来我想他 告诉我它
was mixed with the
混合了
stricking you know
打击你知道
St yes from that day I had to lie and
圣是的从那天起我不得不撒谎
smile every day you know knowing they
每天都笑着，你知道
have they had killed people and I was
他们杀了人，我
really really scared my heart beat like
真的真的很害怕，我的心跳就像
you know I could hear it and I thought
我能听到它一样，我以为
they could hear my heart and I thought
他们能听到我的心跳，我以为
I'm I'm dead I still had to be friendly
我已经死了，但我还有
with them and you know until they ared
和他们友好相处，你知道，直到他们发现
him and he disappeared you were very
他，他消失了，你非常
brave I'm going to say that extremely
勇敢，我要说的是，非常
Brave absolutely from my heart you're a
勇敢，绝对是从心底里说的，你是一个
very courageous lady thank you very much
非常勇敢的女士，非常感谢你，
nine thank you brilliant absolutely
九，谢谢你，非常出色，非常
brilliant have a nice day all right you
出色 祝你有个美好的一天，好吧，你
take care bye-bye now
保重，再见，现在，
well she's a very strong witness and so
她是一个非常有力的证人，所以
that's what I'm going to take um about
这就是我要说的，嗯，关于
what she found what she saw who she
她发现了什么，她看到了什么，她
spoke to um there's huge amounts within
和谁谈过，嗯，在
that intervie that we can put to him we
那次采访中，我们可以获得大量信息 我们
had to ask uh the same question numerous
不得不多次向他提出同样的问题
times and unreliable Witnesses dishonest
，不可靠的证人，不诚实的
Witnesses tend to trip themselves up and
证人往往会犯错，而
there was complete consistency in her
answers each time she was asked around
每次她被问到
the same points and what she had to say
同样的问题时，她的回答都是完全一致的，她
to us is corroborated by all of the
对我们说的话得到了证实 根据
information that we've been able to
我们
gather I think he believed that the
收集到的所有信息，我认为他 他认为
police was so
警察太
incompetent uh and who wouldn't kind of
无能了，他们不会
gather the evidence and start to join
收集证据，开始把
the dots I think he was quite confident
这些线索联系起来。我认为他很有信心，
that the police would not investigate
警察不会把
these
这些
as murders and therefore they would
当作谋杀案来调查，所以他们
never have searched a flat for evidence
永远不会搜查公寓寻找证据
and stuff CU so let's be fair about it
和东西 CU 所以让我们公平地对待它
let's be fair about it it was nienburg
让我们公平地对待它 是 nienburg
that kind of joined the docks so he is
加入了码头 所以他
adamant that canet house was merely a
坚持认为 canet house 只是
base for his business the people visited
他的商业基地 人们来这里是
to look at gemstones be sold gemstones
为了看宝石 卖宝石
nothing else if that were the case then
没有别的 如果真是这样，那么
it would not be full of dead people's
它就不会充满死人的
possessions
物品了，
delhi's forbidding tar jail is Charles
德里令人生畏的塔尔监狱是查尔斯·
sa's
萨的
home wanted for murder in Thailand sa
家，他因在泰国谋杀而被通缉，萨
was eventually captured in Delhi in 1976
最终于 1976 年在德里被捕，
for another crime the mass drugging and
罪名是另一项罪行，即
robbery of 60 French students after
在服刑 20 年后对 60 名法国学生进行大规模下药和抢劫
serving 20 years of his sentence he was
服刑多年后，他被
released by this time the statute of
释放了，此时
limitations in Thailand had run out and
泰国的诉讼时效已过，
he could no longer could be tried for
他不再因谋杀而受审。
the murders
there my family I want to see family
那里有我的家人，我希望
after his release from prison in India
在他获释后能见到家人 在印度监狱，
sa was deported to France then
sa被驱逐到法国，然后
inexplicably 6 years later he traveled
莫名其妙地6年后，他去了
to Nepal the only country in the world
尼泊尔，这是世界上唯一一个
where he was still wanted for
他仍然因
murder he was apprehended and tried for
谋杀而被通缉的国家，他因
the murders of Connie Joe bronic and
谋杀Connie Joe bronic和
luron car barer found guilty he was
luron car barer而被捕并受审，被判有罪 被
sentenced to life in Capman do I shocked
判处终身监禁 Capman 我很震惊地
to get ation without they didn't even
得到 ation 没有他们甚至没有
call a single witness
传唤一个证人
nothing zage once again claimed that
什么也没有 zage 再次声称
Herman nienberg was instrumental in his
Herman nienberg 是他
imprisonment in Nepal Kerber in Nepal
在尼泊尔监禁的关键人物 Kerber 在尼泊尔
has been bribing paying money to
一直贿赂
policemen to
警察
Judes to
Judes
everybody to keep Char sage in jail
每个人都把 Char Sage 关进监狱
Herman nienberg denies all of the
Herman Nienberg 否认了
allegations sage has made against
Sage
him in 2016 during his imprisonment in
在 2016 年加德满都监禁期间对他提出的所有指控，
Katmandu the production team made their
制作团队
first contact with saage they asked him
第一次与 Saage 取得联系，他们要求他
for an interview about the murders he
接受采访，谈论他
was suspected of committing in Thailand
涉嫌在 泰国
hello oh is that Mr saage yeah hi Mr
你好哦，是萨格先生吗是的你好
saage my name is David but denied access
萨格先生我叫大卫但是被拒绝
to the prison the project
进入监狱这个项目
floundered then on December the 3rd 2022
陷入了困境然后在12月3日 2022
a voice message was received out of the
突然收到语音消息，
blue I is sh well
我很好，
uh uh I think I have a news I'm now at
嗯，我想我有一个消息，我现在在
the
airport and uh taking my first journey
机场，嗯，19 年后第一次旅行
soup after 19
喝汤，
years okay so I just wanted to uh ask
好吧，所以我只是想问
you whether you you are still interested
你是否 你仍然有兴趣
in uh making the documentary if yes then
制作这部纪录片吗如果是的话那么
uh I believe that uh I I will
我相信我会
participate since his release sa has
参与自从他被释放以来sa
been claiming that he's an innocent man
一直声称他是一个无辜的人
and this series is challenging his
这个系列正在挑战他的
version of events with a focus on five
版本重点关注
murders in Thailand with a final
泰国发生的五起谋杀案
interrogation of saage by Jackie Molton
Jackie Molton 和 Gary copson 对 saage 的最后一次审讯
and Gary copson imminent the two
即将开始，两位
detectives want to take an overview of
侦探想要对
the evidence they've accumulated but
他们积累的证据进行概述，但
they also want to explore any
他们也想探究
connections tying SRA to not only the
SRA 与
five murders committed in Thailand but
泰国发生的五起谋杀案以及另外
five more carried out in Nepal India and
五起谋杀案之间的任何联系 在尼泊尔、印度和
Pakistan the similarities of which are
巴基斯坦，这些地区的相似之处是
impossible to ignore to evaluate these
无法忽视的，为了评估这些
potential connections they turn to
潜在的联系，他们求助于
police intelligence analyst Sam
警察情报分析师山姆·
Robbins hello Hi Sam it's David from
罗宾斯。你好，山姆，我是
Monster films oh hey David got a really
怪物电影公司的大卫，哦，嘿，大卫有一个非常
interesting project that we're working
有趣的项目，我们正在
on at the moment it's about the
目前正在制作一部关于
suspected serial killer Charles Sage ah
连环杀手嫌疑犯查尔斯·塞奇的纪录片，
right so what we're going to do as part
嗯，所以我们要做的
of the documentary is challenge him we
就是在纪录片中挑战他，我们
got a timeline of kind of events
得到了
surrounding kind of his life and his
关于他的生活、他的
crimes and various other bits of
罪行和其他各种事件的时间表 这些
information so I'm wondering whether you
信息，所以我想知道你是否
might want to come on board and see if
愿意加入我们，看看
you can do something with this from a
你是否可以从
analysis point of view we could bring it
分析的角度做些什么，我们可以把它放在
together and look at it from a strategic
一起，从战略角度来看待它，
overview okay brilliant I'll start
好的，太棒了，我开始了 向
sending across to you what we've got at
您传达我们目前掌握的信息，
the moment and new stuff's coming in all
以及不断收到的新信息。
time following the call Sam receives all
在接到电话后，Sam 收到了所有
of the available information
可用的信息，
she uses it to create what police know
她用这些信息创建了警方所称的
as an association chart it could help
关联图，这可以帮助
Gary and Jackie when they come to
Gary 和 Jackie 来
interview
面试
sabr Association charts are a really
sabr 关联图是一种
good way of getting an overview of the
很好的方式，可以让你了解这份
job and how people places and events fit
工作以及人物、地点和事件是如何结合
together as you can see Charles zbr has
在一起的，正如你所看到的，查尔斯 zbr
sat in the middle over here we've got
坐在中间，这里有
events that have taken place in Bangkok
在曼谷发生的事件
and Thailand and as you can see this is
和泰国，正如你所看到的，这里是
where the majority of the witnesses who
would have fed into fed into this story
这个故事中大多数证人的
can be found are you aware of any
所在地，你知道吗 任何
specific information that demonstrates
具体信息表明与
the connection to Charles sabr and to
查尔斯·萨布尔和
the victims I think passport information
受害者的联系，我认为护照信息
is probably going to be your strongest
可能是你最有力的
your strongest link there uh We've
联系，呃，我们
definitely got a photocopied passport
确实有
for Vitali hakeim which is very telling
维塔利·哈克姆的护照复印件，这本身就很有说服力，
in itself so that passport has most
所以 护照肯定是
definitely been used after T hakee is
在 T hakee 去世后被使用的，
deceased in it are two handwritten visas
里面有两张
from two different countries at two
来自两个不同国家、两个
different points of time and they appear
不同时间的手写签证，而且它们看起来
to have the same writing or they seem
有相同的笔迹，或者
they appear to been written by the same
它们似乎是由同一
person is there anything in particular
个人写的，有什么问题吗？ 特别
in these documents that you've prepared
是你准备的这些文件，这些文件
here that are going to be strongly
将强烈
indicative that he is now telling lies
表明他现在在撒谎，
yeah I think we've got some really good
是的，我认为我们这里有一些非常好的
evidence here we've a been able to
证据，我们能够
obtain
information um from what was seized from
从被扣押的物品中获得信息
canet house um in a raid that took place
在 1976 年 3 月 11 日的突袭中，卡内特之家的护照上
on the 11th of March in
1976 and clearly there are passports
显然有
there of people that Charles is saying
查尔斯所说的与
that he only had fleeting interaction
他有过短暂接触的人的护照，
with and those also happen to be the
这些人也恰好是后来
people that have turned up dead there's
被发现死亡的人
a very interesting um book that's found
一本非常有趣的书
in the safe at canet house and that is a
在 canet house 的保险箱里发现的，那是一本
book to do with um Buddhism and we we
与佛教有关的书，我们
know for a fact that Teresa Nolton
知道 Teresa Nolton
bought that book before she traveled to
在去泰国旅行之前买了这本书，
Thailand more so we know because the
因为
name Teresa is written in there were
Teresa 的名字写在那里，当时
there not some instances where he denied
没有 在某些情况下，他否认
being in certain key places at Key times
在关键时刻去过某些关键地点，
where actually we can demonstrate that
而实际上我们可以证明
he was there we know he's been to nepo
他去过那里，我们知道他去过尼波，因为
cuz obviously he traveled there on the
很明显他用
passports of the the Dutch couple and
荷兰夫妇的护照去过那里，
then you've got the connection that they
然后你就得到了联系 他们
use those passports to travel to Nepal
用这些护照前往尼泊尔，
and then Connie Joe brnich and Lauren
然后 Connie Joe brnich 和 Lauren
cier sadly end up deceased there we've
cier 不幸在那里去世了，我们
got a very detailed it's a 31 page
有一份非常详细的声明，这是一份 31 页的
statement that we've got from Mary Andre
声明，是 Mary Andre
L cler what was the source of that Sam
L cler 提供的，那份声明的来源是什么？
the source of that was after she'd been
那是在她
arrested with um Charles saage in India
和查尔斯·萨奇在印度被捕后，
I think that that statement was taken at
我认为那份声明是在
a time when she was very first free of
她第一次
the grips of Charles sabrage so for her
摆脱查尔斯·萨奇的控制时做出的，所以对她来说，
that would have been her first
那应该是她第一次有
opportunity to tell people that are
机会 告诉正在
listening to her all about the things
听她讲话的人们一切 关于
that have happened to her she was like
发生在她身上的事情，她觉得
he was controlling everything I did he
他控制着我所做的一切，他
was having people watching me and
派人监视我，
actually there's a very very damning
事实上，在声明中有一句非常非常严厉的
line in the statement where Mar clerk
话，Mar 书记员
says have you traced AJ have you traced
说，你有没有追踪 AJ，你有没有追踪
AJ Chow because if not it's likely that
AJ Chow，因为如果没有 查尔斯很可能
Charles killed him also and also it's
也杀了他，而且这也是“
the use of the word also yeah so was
也是”这个词的用法，所以
very very very important isn't it I
非常非常重要，不是吗？我
think what you've got to look at is the
认为你必须考虑的是
time periods so all all of the victims
时间段，所以所有受害者都
have turned up deceased in a period of 7
出现了 在 7 个月内死亡，
months I think it is between 1975 and
我认为是在 1975 年至
1976 in three different countries that
1976 年间，Charles Sabrage 进入了三个不同的国家，
Charles sabrage has entered we know that
我们知道
he's entered at the relevant time you've
他是在相关时间进入的，你
got to ask yourself is he suggesting
必须问自己，他是否暗示
that someone's following him around
有人在跟踪他，
those were the words that coming into my
那些人 我脑子里冒出这样的话：
head someone's following me and killing
有人在跟踪我，并且杀害了与
people I happen to be doing business
我有生意来往的人，
with it's ludicrous isn't it if you're
这太荒唐了，不是吗？如果你
talking probability there's someone
说的是概率，那么有人会
following you to each of those countries
跟踪你到每个国家，
and then when you leave those people
然后当你放过那些人的时候，
alone they're coming in and committing
他们 进来 并对
offenses against them he's definitely
他们犯下罪行他绝对是
the common denominator he is most
共同点他绝对是
certainly the common
共同点
denominator
armed with the evidence they have
凭借他们
gathered during the court of their
在法庭调查期间收集的证据
investigation Gary and Jackie sit down
加里和杰基坐下
to prepare their final interview
来准备他们的最终采访
strategy he thinks police officers
策略他认为警察 警官
detectives are incredibly stupid people
侦探们都非常愚蠢，他们
mostly corrupt mostly in it for their
大多腐败，主要是为了他们的
pension and no challenge or threat to
养老金，对他没有挑战或威胁，
him I'll be honest I don't care what he
说实话，我不在乎他怎么
thinks I don't care what he thinks about
想，我不在乎他怎么想，
it's good if he thinks that if he thinks
如果他认为这样就好了 他认为
that we're stupid then he's not going to
我们很蠢，那么他就不会
come prepared is he he's not going to be
做好准备，
ready when we pull the rug out from
当我们把他从脚下抽走时，他不会做好准备，
under him he did say to me that if I'd
他确实对我说过，如果我
mess him a number of years ago he would
几年前惹了他，他会
converted me to heterosexuality and how
让我变成异性恋，
did that make you
那让你
feel in your dreams love I'd say in your
在梦中感觉如何？我会说，在你的
dreams what you both do in that room
梦里，你们俩在那间房间里和
when you sat with him will pretty much
他坐在一起时所做的事情，几乎
forever dictate what people think of him
永远决定了人们对他的看法，以及
in terms of whether he got away with
他是否 逃脱
murder how did you take that burden
谋杀罪你是如何承担这个负担的
because I think it is a burden to be
因为我认为这是 说
honest Jackie is it isn't it bit like in
实话，杰基，这不是一个负担吗？在
our police careers that we bore the
我们的警察生涯中，我们肩负着
responsibility to bring Justice to
为
victims of crime that's not pressure
犯罪受害者伸张正义的责任，这不是压力，
that's an immense privilege it is a
这是一种巨大的特权，这是一种
privilege I don't feel pressured about
特权，我对此没有压力
it at all the evidence that we have
although we're not in a British court of
尽管我们不是在英国法庭上，但我们掌握的所有证据
law is compelling and what I have in
都是令人信服的，
front of me in this file is my best shot
我面前的这份文件中的内容是我最好的尝试
[音乐]，
despite the location date and time being
尽管地点日期和时间已经
set Jackie and Gary have been kept
确定，杰基和加里已经
waiting in the interview room Charles
在面试室里一直等着 Charles
Sage eventually shows up 2 hours
Sage 最终迟到了 2 个小时
late
arrived
到了
okay be waiting yes correct why is that
好的 等待 是的 正确
why does he keep you waiting control he
为什么 他让你等着 控制 他
has to have control
必须有控制力
every time I've met him he's kept us
每次我见到他 他都让我们等得
waiting we crack him
等得等得我们破解了他
partner look get him oh hi Jackie how
伙伴 看，抓住他哦嗨杰基
are you Charles all right yeah how are
你好吗查尔斯好的是的你好吗
good
okay yes
好的是的
okay
好的
Rick I little inter with can go take
里克我有点好奇可以去拍
one this is a photograph of Teresa nolon
一张这是特蕾莎·诺隆的照片
do you know her I don't remember having
你认识她吗我不记得
met her a young girl going to a
见过她 一个小女孩去
monastery to help kids learn mathematics
修道院帮助孩子们学习数学，
from America young
来自美国的年轻
girl the FBI speak to her friend she
女孩，联邦调查局说 她向她的朋友
freely inv voluntarily made the
自愿做出了
following statement the FBI showed this
以下声明，联邦调查局向
Witness a color photograph of a
证人展示了一张彩色照片，照片上有
multicolor cosmetic bag and other toilet
彩色化妆包和其他盥洗
items I recognize the multicolor
用品，我认出了彩色
cosmetic bag I have also examined a
化妆包，我还查看了一
photocopy of the booklet entitled the
本名为《佛教冥想基础》的小册子的复印件
foundations of Buddhist Meditation I was
。
with Teresa when she purchased this
booklet in Vancouver Canada about
September
1974 signed her name August the 17th
1974 年 9 月左右，Teresa 在加拿大温哥华购买了这本小册子，署名是她自己，日期是 1976 年 8 月 17 日，
1976 that was found in your apartment
这本小册子是在你的公寓里发现的，
how did it get there
它是怎么到那里的？
mam number one that I am 100% sure that
第一，我 100% 肯定，
no such thing was from my apartment okay
没有这样的东西来自我的公寓，好吗？
and if something was found he may have
如果找到了什么，他可能
been found in the second
在第二个公寓里被发现，
apartment okay where the boys you was
好吧，你和男孩们
staying but certainly not in my
住在那里，但肯定不在我的
apartment Vali hake you said you didn't
公寓里，Vali hake，你说你不
know him no do you know him no vitalus
认识他，不，你认识他吗，没有vitalus
passport ends up in your apartment
护照在你的公寓里
so you don't know why he got there CU
所以你不知道他为什么去那里 CU
you never met
你从来没有见过
him is that
他，对吗，
correct
but Madam the father stated in the
但是女士父亲在
police report he did this he's been
警方报告中说他这样做了，他已经
exuded no he no no no no his father with
流露出来，不，不，不，不，我非常尊重他的父亲，
the greatest respect can't say he's
不能说他是
alive because he's being Exum in 1976
活着是因为 1976 年，他就是埃克萨姆
and he has been identified as Vitali
，他被确认为维塔利·
hakeim fact fact fact do you have the
哈克姆，事实事实事实，你有
report from the father who say that this
父亲的报告吗？他说这
is my son keep going on the no no no no
是我儿子，继续说不，不，不，
no and I've interviewed Nadine I've
不，我采访过纳丁，我
interviewed her and she saw Vitali hakee
采访过 她和她
at your apartment and she said that he
在你的公寓里看到了维塔利·哈基，她说他
was wearing a very kind of flamboyant
穿着一件非常华丽的
black jacket with kind of gold stars on
黑色夹克，上面有金色的星星，
it she saw him at your apartment and
她在你的公寓里看到了他，
then he disappears when his body was
然后当他的尸体被发现时，他就消失了，
found this is the report by the crime
这是报告 犯罪
suppression unit who say he was wearing
镇压组表示，死者身穿
a black garment a fancy black garment
黑色服装，
with decorative design of yellow stars
上面有黄色星星的装饰图案，
with charred body with Twisted hands and
尸体烧焦，
feet following the investigation it was
手脚扭曲。经过调查，
found out the dead man was Mr Bali
死者是
hakeim who traveled from abroad and had
来自国外的巴厘·哈克姆先生。
stayed with Mr Alan Gautier that's your
和艾伦·戈蒂埃先生住在一起，这是你的
name that you use that's in rooms number
名字，你住在
503 504 KET house it is Now 50 years
503 504 号房间 KET 房子里，现在已经 50 年了，
those cases I have been clear of those
这些案件我已经清楚了，
cases so it mean now you're challenging
所以这意味着现在你在挑战
you challenging the what you call the
你所谓的
tha Police and you are challenging the
警察，你正在挑战
the the Indian
印度
courts Mr saage yes I've sat here for a
法庭，萨格先生，是的，我坐在这里
few hours now listening to you you want
几个小时了，听你说话，你想
to
Discount confessions that you have made
否认你
in numerous places to murder I'm here to
在许多地方对谋杀的供词，我在这里
challenge your denial of your previous
质疑你否认之前的
confessions let's talk about this
供词，让我们来谈谈这份
document it's from the Indian high court
文件，它来自印度高等法院
and you are completely misinterpreting
，你完全误解了
the nature of those
这些诉讼的性质，
proceedings they do not exonerate you
他们没有免除你的
for anything what they describe in the
任何罪名，他们在
appeal court is that the Thai
上诉法院描述的是泰国
authorities were focusing on these two
当局专注于 这两个
Dutch people and they were asking for
荷兰人要求将
you to be extradited to Thailand to face
你引渡到泰国
trial on those charges which were murder
接受审判，罪名是谋杀
and the Indian Court found that there
，印度法庭发现
was sufficient evidence to extradite you
有足够的证据将你引渡，
on those cases you were not exonerated
你没有被免除罪名，
Mr sabr and you know it I'm happy that
萨布尔先生，你知道的 我很高兴
you are mentioning about the appeal it
你提到上诉，这
confirm what I saying that in the court
证实了我所说的，在法庭上，
of law the Tha Embassy with Dre those
泰国大使馆和 Dre 的这
three cases the reason that you did not
三起案件中，你没有
face trial in Thailand was because you
在泰国接受审判的原因是因为你
evaded Justice until their statute of
逃避了司法审判，直到诉讼时效
limitations expired not because you were
结束 过期不是因为你
not guilty of anything in the book there
没有犯任何罪 书上
that you now dispute your confessions
说你现在对你的供词提出异议，
from you say why would I have killed
你说我为什么要杀
these people I only went for people with
这些人我只针对那些有
large amounts of money Tre and nton had
大量金钱的人 Tre 和 nton
$1,500 worth of traveler checks today
今天有价值 1,500 美元的旅行支票，
that's well over
这远远超过
$8,000 quite a lot of money worth your
8,000 美元，相当多的钱值得你
bothering about wasn't
费心
it another point you made about money is
你提到的关于金钱的另一个观点是，
that all the people who have given
所有
evidence against you
对你提供证据的人，
Dominique Nadine you say Herman nienberg
多米尼克·纳丁，你说赫尔曼·尼伯格都
have made money out of your story and
从你的故事中赚了钱，
yet no one has made nearly as much money
但没有人
out of your story as you have they Ken
从你的故事中赚到这么多钱 你有他们肯
bear he's the one who make the maximum n
熊他是赚得最多的人，
made money okay let's look at nienberg
赚了钱，好吧让我们看看尼伯格尼
nippen Berg's wife Angela Angela was
彭伯格的妻子安吉拉安吉拉
very significant because the report that
非常重要，因为
you decry that Herman nienberg wrote the
你谴责赫尔曼尼伯格写的
list of things taken from your flag that
从你的国旗上拿走的东西的清单，
Herman nienberg wrote actually Angela
赫尔曼尼伯格写了 实际上，Angela
typed those Anga was very significant
打出了这些内容，Anga 非常重要
and Angela has made not one penny out of
，Angela 没有从你的故事中赚到一分钱，
your story and Angela having worked over
Angela
30 years for the United Nations is an
在联合国工作了 30 多年，是一位
extremely impressive witness an
非常令人印象深刻的证人，一位
extremely clever woman of the highest
非常聪明的女性，拥有最高的
possible Integrity who has made not a
正直的人没有赚到
penny but nevertheless gives very
一分钱，但却提供了非常
powerful evidence against you Mr
有力的证据来指控你，
mentioning
Angela according to this book he was
根据这本书，先生提到了安吉拉，他
kinar that name of Angela is not here
知道安吉拉的名字不在这里，
Angela appear nowhere in after 15
15 年后安吉拉再也没有出现过，
yearses she's the one doing but because
她就是那个做这件事的人，但因为
everybody say k did it must come as a
每个人都说 k 做了这件事 你必须惊讶地
nasty surprise to you to find that
发现，
Angela a woman of unimpeachable
安吉拉，一个无可指责的
integrity was so very well involved
正直的女人，参与得如此深入，
because it's not in that book that you
因为它不在那本书里，你
like to quote when it suits you treas
喜欢引用，当它适合你时，
and alon's book on Buddhism that she
她
bought in the united or in Canada and
在美国或 在加拿大，并
took to Thailand that was found in your
带到泰国，在你的公寓里发现的，
apartment that was in your safe and we
在你的保险箱里，我们
have witnesses to
有证人
in your safe dead woman's book okay
在你的保险箱里发现了死去的女人的书，好的，请在
please and there were other things found
there please I'm yet I you let me reply
那里发现其他东西，请我回复
I cutting the finished yet you cannot
我 结束了，你不能
accuse somebody or something without
指责某人或某事，而不
also giving him a right to rep yes
给他权利代表是的
finished yet no no no no no no please
结束了，不不不不不不不请
before you go ahead please also what was
在你继续之前请也发现了什么
found a diary found belonging to
发现了一本属于
Cornelia Hema there was also a bag
Cornelia Hema 的日记还有一个
belonging to Cornelia Hemker there was
属于 Cornelia 的包 有亨克
also medication belonging to Cornelia
还有 Cornelia Hemker 的药物，
Hemker and there was a postcard that
还有一张
Cornelia had written home but which
Cornelia 写回家的明信片，但
never got posted all those things were
从未寄出，所有这些东西都是在
found in your apartment after this go
你家被烧死后在你的公寓里找到的，
was burned to death and more we've got
而且我们有
evidence from two people to say that on
两个人的证据说
the night that these two Dutch people
这两个荷兰人死的那天晚上，
died you and a j come back to the
你和 j 回到公寓，
apartment covered in mud all over your
shoes and trousers and that you were
鞋子和裤子上全是泥巴，你
carrying a hose pipe that stank of
拿着一根散发着
petrol and that you put it on top of the
汽油味的软管，你把它放在
fridge they were burned to death Mrs
冰箱顶上，他们被烧伤了
saage and they were burned to death by
萨奇夫人，他们被
you and AJ like you said in that book
你和 AJ 烧死了，就像你在那本书里说的，
wen't they
so why those people they didn't come in
为什么那些人不上
the court of law to give the because the
法庭，因为这些
cases never came to a court of law
案件从来没有上过法庭 法律
Mr of
先生，
what you are talking it is the people
你在说什么，是那些
who let
让大家
on seeing all the media attacking me Etc
看到所有媒体攻击我的人等等，
who came forward to say this and that
他们站出来这么说，
there are five people here the common
这里有五个人，
denominator of all of these five people
这五个人的共同点
is you property from all of these five
就是你从所有这些人那里得到的财产
people were found in your apartment you
你的公寓里发现了五个人，你
are the comedy
是喜剧
nominator so let's start talking about
提名人，所以让我们开始吧 谈到
these victims this is what you are say
这些受害者，这就是你说
that I did it you stayed I'm telling you
我做了你留下来我告诉你
you did it you stayed in prison for the
你做了你因为
deaths of the couple in nepo you sit
尼波这对夫妇的死亡而留在监狱你坐在
here and you say I have never killed
这里说我从来没有杀过
anyone please you say in India I've been
任何人请你说 在印度，我
convicted yes of unlaw for homicide my
被判犯有非法谋杀罪，
dear sir I'm going to file a defamation
亲爱的先生，我将就
case against you for this matter good
此事对您提起诽谤诉讼，祝您
luck Mr because good luck to you because
好运，先生，祝您好运，因为
when in 1997 when I went the only
当我在 1997 年去的时候，
evidence they have that so came in Nepal
他们唯一的证据就是 1975 年我们来到尼泊尔，
in 1975 it
当时
is guest registration car from two
有两家酒店的客人登记车
hotels and they have only photocopy in
，他们只有复印件，当时
75 no photocopy machine existed so this
没有复印机，所以
we went to um the Bangkok Post Monday
我们去了曼谷邮报，
January the 1st 1973 it's about an
1973 年 1 月 1 日星期一，这是关于
advert from rank xero actually let me
xero 的广告，实际上让我
tell you 1938 was the year Xerox coping
告诉你 1938 年是施乐
machines were invented d d da Fugi Z
复印机发明的年份，1967 年，Fugi Z
started its unique Xerox service in
在泰国开始了其独特的复印服务，
Thailand in 1967 that's an original copy
这是
from the Bankok post so that knocks that
曼谷邮政的原件，因此驳斥了这一
argument in the head in the flat of your
论点 在你的公寓的头
apartment the apartment of yours at KET
你的公寓在KET
house they found strick
房子他们发现这些药物的
name these these drugs are not harmless
名字这些药物不是无害的
Mr you seem
先生你似乎
to you R op the Ty police didn't find it
你R op Ty警察没有找到
it was K bear say that he he went to the
它是K熊说他他去了
flat and he found it so please you check
公寓，他找到了，所以请你检查一下
your facts Mr you seem to be very proud
事实，先生，你似乎
of your ability to drug people and you
对你给人下药的能力感到非常自豪，你
think that you always gave them perfect
认为你总是给他们完美的
Doses and they always woke up but not my
剂量，他们总是醒来，但不是我的
ability it mean that true is it it mean
能力，这意味着这是真的吗 这意味着
that what I did I say yes I did it well
我做了什么，我说是的，我做得很好，
you want me to you you want me to deny
你想让我对你，你想让我否认
you you I I drug the people and
你，你我给人们下药，
I don't deny that you say you did not
我不否认你说你没有
harm them I say you did harm them I like
伤害他们，我说你伤害了他们，我 就像
their not tell you again tells lies on
他们没有再告诉你一样，
every Point statement taken by police in
在德里警方的每一个陈述中都撒谎，
Delhi where Charles saan tell the name
查尔斯·萨恩说出了
of the officer that's about right have
警官的名字，这是正确的，有
the name of the officer about there is
警官的名字，
no name officer there is no signature Mr
没有名字，警官没有签名，先生，
you are not a convincing witness I'm not
你不是 令人信服的证人 我不是
a
witness no you're not a wit yes you're a
证人 不，你不是个机智 是的，你是个
serial
连环
killer that's it
杀手 就是这样 是
yeah thank you okay then we will meet in
的，谢谢你 好的 然后我们会在法庭上见面
court thank you good I look forward to
谢谢你好我期待着
it okay let's
好吧我们
go well you were in there for 6 hours 6
走吧你在里面待了6个小时6个
hours 6 hours I didn't see you what did
小时6个小时我没看到你
you think of the tactic what do you
你觉得这个策略怎么样你
think their strategy what were they
认为他们的 策略他们在
doing no their strategy
做什么没有他们的策略
I they had
我他们什么都
nothing they wanted to to make something
没有他们想
out of
nothing and I believe that
无中生有我相信
uh they had no facts to rely
他们没有事实
on and they were cting the people who
依据他们正在利用
are making money out
of or with my name he wasn't expecting
我的名字赚钱的人他 没想到
what we had today he wasn't
我们今天会遇到这样的事情，他没
expecting you know the part the Buddhist
想到你知道那本佛教
book with Theresa's name on it he wasn't
书籍上有特蕾莎的名字，他没
expecting vali's passport and and the
想到瓦利的护照和
whole list of property that was found he
被发现的整个财产清单，他
wasn't expecting any of that he was just
没想到这些 他只是
expecting oh this is going to be so
在想，哦，这会很
boring because they're just going to ask
无聊，因为他们只会问
the same old questions they won't have
同样的老问题，他们
anything and what we did have I think
什么都没有，而我们所做的，我认为让
shocked him if we all look at that photo
他震惊，如果我们都看看那张照片，
of him there
that's pretty much around the time of
那就是 大约在
Thailand there that man there who
泰国战争期间，那里有一个
committed these
犯下这些
crimes and if the ti police hadn't let
罪行的人，如果 如果警察不放
him go he would have been executed for
他走，他就会为他们被处决，
them yes and that's the last image we'd
是的，那是我们
have of him yes we wouldn't be sat
对他的最后印象，是的，我们现在不会坐在
opposite in now as a nearly 80y old man
对面，一个快80岁的老人
who's still getting away with murder yes
还在逍遥法外，是的
absolutely and believes himself that is
绝对相信自己
not guilty of those
对这些
murders
谋杀案无罪
oh well how are you hello glad to see
哦，你好吗，很高兴
you again and you yeah after
再次见到你，是的，在
interviewing sabrage for almost 8 hours
采访了萨巴奇近 8 个小时后，
Paul is now ready to deliver his final
保罗现在准备对他
psychological assessment of his
的
personality and to also determine
性格，并确定
whether or not he believes sabrage
他是否认为萨巴雷奇
remains a danger to the
仍然对
public in my world in my professional
公众构成威胁，在我的职业生涯中，
world I come across people who have a
我遇到了具有
series of different personality
一系列不同性格
characteristics and when I have looked
特征的人，当我
at my conversations with you I
回顾与你的谈话时，我
see a
看到一种以
personality that is
characterized by what we call the dark
我们称之为黑暗三角的特征为特征的个性，
Triad
I
我
see narcissistic Roots narcissism we are
看到自恋的根源自恋，我们正在
looking at if you like a selflove a
研究如果你喜欢自爱，
self-regard a need to see everyone else
自尊，需要看到其他人的
as attending to less important than
关注都不如
worshiping
崇拜
you I see
你重要，我
maoism now it's this is your opinion oh
现在看到了毛主义 这是你的意见哦
yes um
是的嗯
sadly it's informed by many years study
遗憾的是这是根据多年的学习
experience and working with people who
经验和与
have the same situation so I'm quite
有同样情况的人一起工作得出的所以我很有
confident of that we are looking at the
信心我们正在研究
ability the willingness the Relentless
能力意愿对
manipulation of other people around you
你周围其他人的无情操纵 在
in this case the willingness to control
这种情况下，控制的意愿，
to direct to have other people
指挥，让其他人
subjugated in many ways to your will
以多种方式屈服于你的意志，
come back to that in I have
回到那个我
never tried to control other people
从来没有试图控制别人
never no now what I'm saying to you is
从来没有没有现在我要对你说的是，
that you showed that Relentless
你表现出了无情的
remorseless pattern that we see in
无情模式 我们在
another group of people we see it in
另一组人身上也看到了这一点，我们在
people who have psychopathy and I
患有精神病的人身上也看到了这一点，我
remember you saying to me that whatever
记得你对我说过，不管
it is I won't find that there is any
是什么，我都不会发现你有任何
psychopathy with you well I'm sad to say
精神病，我很遗憾地说，
that that's not true I do find that
事实并非如此 我发现
everything that you have done your life
你一生中所做的每一件事都
shows those three dark characteristics
表现出了这三个黑暗的性格特征，
it shows the narcissism it shows the
它表现出自恋，表现出
machiavellism and it shows the
马基雅维利主义，表现出
psychopathy one of your devices is to
精神病态，你的一个技巧就是
pick on a detail that you think can be
挑选一个你认为可以
supported from your point of view and
从你的角度得到支持的细节 并
bring the conversation to that and to go
把话题引向那个
around it again and again and again just
方向， 一次又一次，
wait please until we're in a situation
请等待，直到我们处于一个
where you have distracted attention away
你已经将注意力
from these other matters I believe in
从其他事情上转移开的情况，我相信在
this program I've been asked more than 3
这个节目中，我被问到超过
400 questions and I never refuse any
3400 个问题，我从来没有拒绝过任何
question but that isn't true yeah that
问题，但那不是 不是真的，是的，
isn't true I mean I don't know about
不是真的，我的意思是我不知道
with other people I do know that with me
其他人的情况，但我知道我的情况
there were various areas where because
有很多方面，因为
what you are telling I tell you if it's
你说的我告诉你这是
a privacy yes he the mother I have a
隐私，是的，他是我的母亲，我有
threshold you cannot go what I'm saying
你不能去的门槛，我说的
is that your statement that you have
是，你的陈述，你已经
answered all of the questions is correct
回答了所有的问题是正确的，
all the question yeah right okay and
所有的问题，是的，好的，
isn't that this very discussion that
这不是
we're having isn't it a way that you
我们正在进行的讨论，这不是你
have of saying whatever anyone else
不管别人怎么说，
whatever the world says is not what I
不管世界怎么说，如果这不是我
want then it's not true
想要的，那就不是真的，
I Charles know how the world is how it
我知道世界是什么样的，
should be how I am in it and anyone who
应该是什么样子，我身处其中，任何
does not accept that is wrong now from
不接受这一点的人，从你的角度来看，都是错的
your point of view that has worked well
这
for you
对你
internally sadly it has meant that you
内心很有帮助，但不幸的是，这意味着你
have spent decades in prison it has
在监狱里度过了几十年，这
meant that scores of people have been
意味着无数人因为
hurt along the way by your criminal
你的犯罪行为而受到伤害
activity
but still you take the position that
但你仍然坚持认为
I've never hurt anyone it's never
我从来没有伤害过任何人，这从来没有
happened and that if the world is not
发生过，如果世界不
understood when I say never Hur mean
理解我说的“从来没有”的意思，
physically I never hurt any but of
我从来没有在身体上伤害过任何人，但
course that isn't true again I meant but
当然这不是真的，我的意思是，但那
that isn't true you mean with the drugs
不是” 你说的对，吸毒会让
you hurt well I'll start with the drugs
你受伤，好吧，我会从吸毒开始，
yes but but the point you say with the
是的，但是你说的
drug you hurt so it is hurt okay so we
吸毒会让你受伤，所以它确实会受伤，好吧，我们
agree on that but what I am going on now
同意这一点，但是我现在
to say in summary is that if you were
要说的是总结 如果你
able to stand back and see the trail of
能退后一步，看看
Destruction that your life has been you
你的生命所走的毁灭之路，你
would be
会为
heartbroken at the life you have lived
你浪费的生命而心碎，
and wasted but the tragedy here is that
但悲剧的是，
I don't think you have the capacity to
我不认为你有能力
do that
做到这一点
you when there was Interview by two I
你当有两个采访我
French please may I finish fren yeah may
法语请我可以完成fren是的
I I express to the people the pr that I
我可以向人们表达我很
am sorry yeah but your sorrow your
抱歉是的但你的悲伤你的
sorrow is just something you say it's
悲伤只是你说的这
not something you mean that's your
不是你的意思那是你的
opinion it's my experience and what I'm
意见这是我的经验和 我
saying is that for the child that you
想说的是，正是你
were that led us to where you are I feel
小时候的形象引领我们走到今天 我感到
very sorry I think that that child was
非常抱歉，我认为那个孩子受到了
abused by the world abused at home in
虐待，在家里受到了
all sorts I don't mean me it mean that
各种各样的虐待，我不是说我，这意味着
you are giving me some excuses you want
你在给我找借口，你
to give me some excuses no because you
想给我找借口，不，因为你
say what you have done it is because of
说了你做过的事 这是因为
I'm not giving you and whereas myself I
我没有给你，而我自己我
don't take it as an excuse of course you
不会把它当作借口，当然你
don't because why if I've done something
不会，因为如果我做了什么，
then I'm responsible for it and I pay
那么我就得负责，我付出代价，
and I pay for it and I give you example
我付出代价 我给你举个
in India yeah may I just before you do
印度的例子，是的，在你做之前，
Charles you listen to you're doing it
查尔斯，你听我说你
again what you're doing is you're trying
又在这么做了，你在做的是你试图
to shoot us off on one of yourid thank
用你的一个ID射杀我们，
you very much you're saying to the
非常感谢你 说
extent that I might have done something
我可能做了一些事情，
I'm sorry I'm regretful but you're not
我很抱歉，我很后悔，但你没有，
because as you are you don't have that
因为你没有那个
capacity and I do feel sorry for the
能力，我确实为你所生的孩子感到难过，
child that you were having said that
说了
every single step of your life you have
每一个 你生命中的这一步你
chosen deliberately and knowingly to do
故意而为地选择了做
what you did and I am sad to say that I
你所做的事情，我很遗憾地说，我
do think you are a dangerous person I
确实认为你是一个危险的人，我
think think you were a dangerous person
认为你是一个危险的人
um I think you still are I haven't seen
嗯，我认为你还是那样，我没看到
anything that shows to me that you've
任何迹象表明你已经
changed can I thank you for talking with
改变了，我可以感谢你和我交谈吗？
me I'm sorry that I had to come to the
我很抱歉我不得不得出这样的
conclusion that I did I'm quite sure
结论，我很确定
that there are questions that a formal
有一些问题
Authority ought to look at
需要正式的权威机构来研究，
um but I I just wanted to be very plain
但我只是想非常
and clear to you that that was my view I
清楚的告诉你，这是我的观点，我
know you think well that's your view and
知道你认为那是你的观点，
I understand yeah that's your view thank
我明白，是的，那是你的观点，
you very much yeah please
非常感谢，是的 请
okay is finished yeah oh okay there
好吗结束了是的哦好的
anything you want to say to Paul
你有什么想对保罗查尔斯说的
Charles
no that's very say it is he who has to
不那是说是他必须
ask me the question not me to ask him
问我这个问题而不是我问他
questions
问题
what because I don't have yeah to
因为我没有是的来
justify
证明
anything okay all right we'll take you
任何事情 好的好的我们会把你
down okay yeah thank you okay thanks do
带走好的是的谢谢你好的谢谢
take care yeah you too
保重是的你也是
goodbye
再见
wa so Paul how do you feel that
所以保罗你觉得怎么样
went I think it was an
我认为这是一次
unexceptional interview meeting with a
平淡无奇的采访会见了一个
seriously and dangerously flawed
严重而危险的缺陷
man I don't think he's likely to
人我 我不认为他会
suddenly run a mock hurting people but
突然做出伤害他人的举动，但
he has learned over the years to use his
他已经吸取了教训 多年来，他一直利用自己的
charm his social skills some people
魅力、社交技巧，有些人
would say Charisma in order to seduce
会说，魅力是为了引诱
people into doing his will he will hurt
人们按照他的意愿行事，他会
somebody for Trinkets and I think that
为了小饰品而伤害别人，我认为这
Still Remains an
仍然是一个
issue yeah not all right Charles well
问题，是的，查尔斯，好吧，
when we started doing this one of the
当我们开始这样做的时候
first things I said to you is I don't
我跟你说的第一件事就是，我
think anybody watching
认为任何观看
this doesn't think of a serial killer
这部电影的人都不会想到这是连环杀手，
after all these months of filming what
经过几个月的拍摄，
do you think they think
你认为他们
now well you gave me the opportunity to
现在会怎么想，你给了我机会
put forward my facts
提出我的事实
and fact which is based on legal papers
和事实，这是基于法律文件
and documents so now let the people
和文档，所以现在让人民
decide let the people decide I guess
决定，让人民决定，我想
this is goodbye
这是再见，是
yeah like they say in French
的，就像他们用法语说的一样，
all
yeah hello hi Gary just picked up The
是的，你好，加里刚刚收到了
Voice fing message from you to give you
你的语音消息 你
a call um you know it's around the Tha
打电话，嗯，你知道这是关于 Tha
murders and the fact that um our subject
谋杀案的，事实上，我们的主题
has evaded Justice in Thailand as a
由于诉讼时效而逃避了泰国的司法追诉
result of their statute of limitations
and it occurred to me that the Dutch can
，我突然想到，荷兰人可以
pursue the murder of Dutch citizens
anywhere in the world also no statute of
在世界任何地方追究谋杀荷兰公民的罪行 也没有
limitation but a public interest test
诉讼时效，但有公共利益测试
the murders of Cornelia and HK are
谋杀案 Cornelia 和 HK
simply atrocious so they could get the
太残暴了，他们可以把
murders that that were committed in
在泰国发生的谋杀案
Thailand into court and it feels really
告上法庭，我觉得这
important to me so I'm not so much
对我来说真的很重要，所以我并不是
suggesting that we should do this but
建议我们应该这样做，而是
that we must do
我们必须这样做
this
这个
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